Transcending Death

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Re: Transcending Death

Post  joannneee on Thu Jun 18, 2009 11:05 pm

Vick: I don't have a decent comeback to that. CaliVick? xD

Actually, I think my question was addressed in class today, during the talk: Why do we still exist, if we can find no purpose?

I think you idea about the being knowing the purpose is completely, utterly plausible, though I cannot, from my state here, as a person, say whether or not its correct because whether or not something is correct often still goes down to the views of said person.

This is because, as we’ve discussed, our Being is what is conscious of its connection to the Universal Being. It, therefore, understands its importance. Thus, wouldn’t it strive to get the individual to perform tasks that will be beneficial to other parts of the Universal Being?

I think this is also a very insightful theory that you've proposed - with the motivation to complete ourselves, and to allow ourselves to advance, we have come to a point where we are responsible to cultivate ourselves. Yet when one transcends death, one is able to accept even death as a process of life. Is that an ultimate goal of all human beings? To transcend our limits? If so, then isn't understanding death a pathway into a higher level of the spiral? Through understanding death, we see that there is continuence, if you believe in rebirth. If we didn't fear death, then death would be merely something like sleep - calm and peaceful.

This leads to my main thingy - you'll see - below! Very Happy

Luoh:

In a way, your response connects the two - the concept of time and the concept of the fear of death. If we didn't have time, we wouldn't fear death - and coincidentally (or not) meditation and enlightenment also includes the destroying of the concept of time, where there is no future and no past, only now. Through this year I believe we've gone through many a things that tells us, continuously, to forget that we have the past and the future because we end up missing things that are around us and enrich us. Do you think the concept of enlightenment has to do with death?

Ivy
: As I asked Luoh - do you think death is a process? A beginning? An end? What do you think is after death? What is death?

As for the thing you brought up yesterday, it's here - belowww. Very Happy


Joyce: Do we really never wake up? Like when we go to sleep, we always believe we'll wake up. We end up thinking that we've only been asleep for a wink. Maybe that's like death - merely one moment in the many. Whether or not its eternal is still to be debated, eh?

As for living life to its fullest, I personally believe that that is definitely a way for us to compensate for the fear of dying. Or maybe it should be modified into risk taking and living for happiness? After all, those are the things that we base our lives on - chances, and happiness.

I just wonder why we have to go through such scary processes to die. A natural death may be the most painless, maybe? Dying of old age... Maybe that's most peaceful way to go.

And I don't think you're going in circles, lol! When you think about it like this, isn't death also merely a chance that we take into the abyss of the unknown? Isn't courage one of the main components of living a fulfilled life, so that we step out of our comfort zone? Isn't death something like that? We take a risk and die, to see the other side, or maybe lack, thereof.

Ken: LOL! That's interesting - I used to think that we'd have one of us every moment of our lives - like the moment before there'd be a me and then the moment after there'd be another me, and the moment after that there'd be another me, all living their lives, so that they seem to have some parallel flow. So when one of "people within a moment" die, the next moment the same person, only a moment later, dies again.

Do you get what I mean? Razz

Angela:
I think in a sense it is a mix of all. End…in a physical sense. But our spiritual Beings travel on…in a continuous process. Im not so sure about whether death can be a relief from life. It seems, though, that appears to be the case. It seems as if people are not satisfied or are tired of their life, they want to end it…perhaps thinking that it will be better? Hm….?

Wow, this is like what we talked about in class today - that our souls continue to travel in a continuous process. But does death really provide all the answers to life? If we could all just die and the problems would be solved, yet our souls lived on, does that mean that our problems would once again reoccur in our next lives?

As for the chaos caused by the lack of time - do our ego-minds, in search of a tangible thing to hold on to, hold on to the fear of death as a reason why they do not want to be destroyed? If so, don't you think there could possibly be a reason they do so? Because if we died, (and in the context of our class today) our soul's lesson would be discontinued in this life? Maybe the ego-mind is trying to maximize the amount of work we can put inside a lifetime. Who knows?

Kathy:
I think death is just not being able to live, dying before you have accomplished your goal and fate in life, leaving wihtout finishing living. Maybe once a person can live with no regrets, there would be nothing to fear because then one is content and would not mind if they were to die because they have experienced LIFE for themselves, not by other peoples observations but from their own essence and being.

I believe it is possible to stop fearing death because death could have different meanings to different people. once one is content with the life they lived and has experienced what they came to experience, why fear ending it? once one is one with everything and has found their own being, fearing would not tie in with death.

In our class discussion today, we talked about reincarnation, or rebirth, into a new being to learn the same life lesson that we've set for ourselves in the spirit world. Does contentment stem from the fact that you've accomplished your goal? Does the ego-mind know, however subconsciously, that the soul's ultimate goal is to learn its life lesson? And death is merely the transition to a next phase of learning, perhaps, so the fear of death comes from not finishing the lesson that could have been learned - since we could transcend death by being content, in a way, then doesn't that mean spiritual peace and happiness?

Get it, don't get it? Tell me. xDDD


To ALL (and I mean you guys who've replied as well)!

Thanks for all the responses! Reading all your responses has yet again led me to another question, and I think this one is the most crucial to my question about Death.


In the context of our discussion, I've seen many people state that the fear of death may be quenched by us living our lives to the fullest, and thus, attaining enlightenment, in a sense. We live to be happy, to be content, and to live in the now. This, then, allows us to perform miracles, and do things that we've never could have imagined. The man who lifted 7000 kg in weights transcended his phisical limitations. Sri Chmmoy (correct me if I spelled his name incorrectly) did so many things that we could have considered to be impossible, and this shows us just how one can use will to do the things that are impossible. Even though we are bound on the physical plain, our potential continues to astound us even to today.

Yet think on the other side - some people who have come so close to death - such as surviving a devastating car accident - have lived to tell about it. They used sheer will to survive. They willed themselves to survive, and they did. This seemingly "fear" of death, allowed them to transcend, as well.

Then, what do you make of this? Is the fear of death almost as strong a pushing force as our un-fear, or acceptance of death? What do you think?
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  Angela on Fri Jun 19, 2009 12:29 am

Joanne wrote:Wow, this is like what we talked about in class today - that our souls continue to travel in a continuous process. But does death really provide all the answers to life? If we could all just die and the problems would be solved, yet our souls lived on, does that mean that our problems would once again reoccur in our next lives?

Exactly! Just as Ms. Kay mentioned, if reincarnation were really true, it seems as if the soul of a person is always stuck in the same circumstance. It almost feels as if it were stuck and limited and one just wants to get out of that feeling because they have felt it too many times before. In this sense, doesn’t it mean that if a person were to take death as a relief from life, in his afterlife (or reincarnation) he would be transformed into living or feeling the same way he did before? Perhaps that individual would be able to escape the his physical body and esacpe the physical domain, but the spiritual and inner soul will continue on. It’s a very big and abstract concept if you think about it. Just as Ms. Kay said in class, it simply isnt tangible. It is not dense like a table or touchable like a wooden chair.

Joanne wrote:As for the chaos caused by the lack of time - do our ego-minds, in search of a tangible thing to hold on to, hold on to the fear of death as a reason why they do not want to be destroyed? If so, don't you think there could possibly be a reason they do so? Because if we died, (and in the context of our class today) our soul's lesson would be discontinued in this life? Maybe the ego-mind is trying to maximize the amount of work we can put inside a lifetime. Who knows?

Perhaps! The ego mind wants to dominate. It wants to hold power and control us. Unlike our inner Being – soul – it is not quiet. (haha I think we have all experienced that before!) When it creates such fear –fear to death or to what might happen in the future or anything! – we tend to overreact to it and we let go of our power to dominate and all the infinite potential and the Being becomes hidden again. It is easy to overreact to the ego mind and think that our lives are chaotic, yet it takes a great amount of courage to step out of the ego mind and to transcend physical boundaries to venture out in the world of the intangible. Back on topic =) Maybe it is not so much as to maximize the amount of work we can put inside a lifetime as opposed to limiting our growth and who we really can be. Perhaps that will lead to more work – raising awareness that we are not our thoughts and that what the ego mind creates are merely thoughts that we tend to overreact to something….BUT. The ego mind is not an evil devil. It, as Ms. Kay said in class today, is a tool to help us function on the physical domain.

HAHA… I think I kind of took off in another direction =p But hope that helped!!
Razz
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  John on Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:55 am

In my view, the best way to see beyond physical death is to embrace the concept that we are more than physical.

Once we digest, or buy into, the idea that we are energetic awareness, then the life in physical form takes on an expanded meaning. We can see that we birth ourself into limitation perceptions for a purpose, or we do these things that have no value to us???

The human conscious awareness is tied heavily into our 5 senses. This is the ego mind as I understand it. It is also very much our logical left brain thinking. It is fearful of death because it can not define the other side. That realm beyond its comprehension of reality.

We transend this fear once we accept that we are more than our ego mind and realize we are not crazy fools to have put an aspect of our greater self into a physical life form.

I tend to think of this as getting beyond our veil of forgetfulness. The one we need to stay locked into our 5 senses exclusively. Still we do have a choice.

To transend death is to realize we are an energy that can never be destroyed.

John
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  Steph C on Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:49 pm

Then, what do you make of this? Is the fear of death almost as strong a pushing force as our un-fear, or acceptance of death? What do you think?

Hmm, fear of death is definitely a very strong pushing force in that it can help us fight harder against it, and in this sense "transcend." However, while this pushing force is strong, I feel like it is too unnatural... Death is inevitable, and fighting it, even if it makes you "stronger," just doesn't feel right. It's transcending, but not. Of course, I don't ask for people near-death to just give up their lives and embrace death, but I don't think it should be so strongly antagonized. Instead of fearing death, perhaps we should shift it to the will to live, but at the same time embracing the fact the death will come at some point. That's my take.

Sort of touches on what John has eloquently put: "the best way to see beyond physical death is to embrace the concept that we are more than physical. To transend death is to realize we are an energy that can never be destroyed."
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  ivy on Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:41 pm

yooo. i think you spelled the guy's name wrong, but i don't know how to spell his name. and you spelled physical wrong. thank you very much

okay. what is death anyway? i suppose that all depends on the person's perspective. some might consider it as an experience, while some might consider it as a process. well, okay, here's an input from my dad's friend. death is simply the death of the physical, but the spirit still exists. he's osho overdosed and he forced me to put that up. but from my point of view, i think death is just an experience that we all have to go through.

fear of death definitely has a different outcome than the acceptance of it. i don't think that we can ever transcend death when we fear it, because if you have to transcend, than you have to be able to take it in. however, trancending death is when we are able to accept death. in order to transcend, we have to learn from it and to accept it right? the force of fearing death may be strong, but how does that compare to the acceptance of death?
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  joyceychen on Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:51 pm

joannneee wrote:Joyce: Do we really never wake up? Like when we go to sleep, we always believe we'll wake up. We end up thinking that we've only been asleep for a wink. Maybe that's like death - merely one moment in the many. Whether or not its eternal is still to be debated, eh?
yeah, i agree. we really dont know what happens after we die

joannneee wrote:As for living life to its fullest, I personally believe that that is definitely a way for us to compensate for the fear of dying. Or maybe it should be modified into risk taking and living for happiness? After all, those are the things that we base our lives on - chances, and happiness.
mm, nicely put

joannneee wrote:I just wonder why we have to go through such scary processes to die. A natural death may be the most painless, maybe? Dying of old age... Maybe that's most peaceful way to go.
well we can't always have it our way? but it is interesting to think of just how many ways a person can die...


Yet think on the other side - some people who have come so close to death - such as surviving a devastating car accident - have lived to tell about it. They used sheer will to survive. They willed themselves to survive, and they did. This seemingly "fear" of death, allowed them to transcend, as well.

Then, what do you make of this? Is the fear of death almost as strong a pushing force as our un-fear, or acceptance of death? What do you think?
As steph said, the fear of death is a driving force to a certain extent and it actually then translates into the strong will to want to survive and live

and then as ivy said, you can't really transcend death by fearing it. there has to be a level of acceptance.s o fear might be a strong force, but not as strong as acceptance
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  hen on Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:24 pm

well, as death is inevitable, i wouldn't say that escaping it would count as transcending it, unless it could be done every time death approaches.

if you accept death, there wouldn't be any fear of it, thus no need to have to survive. only then can you "transcend" death, or at least the fear of it.
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Re: Transcending Death

Post  Nick_A on Sun Jun 21, 2009 10:28 am

Joan asks

What is Death, in the spiritual sense? Is there a possibility to Transcend Death? If there is, then what is Transcending Death? Is it not fearing Death, and accepting Death as a natural process in life? If so, why do we fear dying? Then is Transcending Death transcending fear? Or Transcending the concept of Death itself?

Well as one with an interest in esoteric Christianity which is not to be confused with modern Christendom, to be spiritually dead is to lose the connection with the above to imagination. It is described in the Bible

Matthew 8

22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
This is the spiritually dead burying the physically dead.

Transcending death is described by St. Paul in 1 Corinthians 15

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2015;&version=31;

17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Again we have this term "sleep" that is so difficult to comprehend but it is the human condition we can awaken to.

42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

We have a natural body with the potential for a spiritual body. It is the esoteric meaning of transcendence that is so difficult to comprehend.

If so, why do we fear dying?

Do we fear death or living? Perhaps it is not the same for all. Let me ask you: if you knew the time and day of your death 23 years from now for example, would you try to live your life be differently? Would you risk living from the knowledge of your death or would you crumble in fear?

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Re: Transcending Death

Post  Vicky on Sun Jun 21, 2009 3:17 pm

JoJo!! Very Happy haha



Yet when one transcends death, one is able to accept even death as a process of life. Is that an ultimate goal of all human beings? To transcend our limits? If so, then isn't understanding death a pathway into a higher level of the spiral?


Do you remember the discussion we had in English class on Friday? Ms. Kay said that the reason for multiple life times is to let our Being “fix” or “realize” the attributes that it is lacking. Therefore, could the fear of death be one of the aspects that our Being needs to learn to deal with? Ms. Kay said that the events that have severely traumatized or injured us from our past life will most likely be passed down into our current life time. This leads me to questioning whether the Being is completely immune to fear or not. Also, in this sense, the Being does not seem to be as “perfect” as it seems to be. It still has scars on it that needs to be healed – it has not yet “perfected” all the truths yet. So, yes, I think that understanding that death is merely a process, instead of an impasse, is something that all of our Being needs to fathom.

]Like the example that Ms. Kay gave us on Friday from Sylvia Browne’s book, it seems to me that the “scars” that our Being carry on are related to the fear of death. For instance, the guy in the anecdote went hysterical over the world “poison” because he was apparently poisoned to death in another life. The word “poison,” then, seems to draw out a very commotional response from him. And this fear stems from the fear of death.


So in conclusion, perhaps our goal on Earth is to “heal” our fears, weaknesses, and eventually, our fear to die. To become truly content with ourselves – to be happy. And that is when we no longer need to have “life times.” We are already “whole.”
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