Do You Have a CHOICE?

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Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Emily Y on Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:15 pm

Hi Everyone -
In response to reading Emerson's Fate, I have pondered this seemingly simple, yet extremely complex question. It really is a matter of opinion but I would like to know what other people think. Do you believe in destiny or do you choose to believe in free-will? Do we choose our lives and what happens in them or do they just happen - everything moving with the tides of fate? Please also explain WHY you believe whatever you believe and add examples you see in life.

My Forums:


http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/spirituality-consciousness-awareness/33529-do-you-have-choice.html#post365805

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/universalhealing/messages

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=31151


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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Steph C on Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:44 pm

Well Emerson said that it was our choice whether or not we become bounded by fate. If we think we are fated, then we are. If we don't, then we are not. Thoughts create reality king of thing. Though he's a transcendentalist and I find myself not really digging some of the transcendentalist beliefs, I think he's right here. If we think we have a destiny, we kind of pave our life roads in that direction. If we left it open ended, there would be so many other possibilities. I think I'm thinking of it in terms of opportunity. You know how they say, you can't wait for opportunity to come to you, you have to go look for opportunities. So if you passively decide that what you already "fatefully" have is all you will ever have, then you "choose" not to "choose." Which actually is a choice. Contrarily, if you go out and look for ways to just explore what you choose, that works too and you are in control of your choice.

It might sound like I am belittling people who believe in fate when I say they "passively" choose to take a certain path, but I really don't mean it that way. It is a choice too to maintain status quo. Being bound my fate is not necessarily a bad thing. Working towards something that is one's destiny, and improving, transcending in taht direction is a tremendous feat in itself.
So yeah I think we have a choice. Feel free to try to change my mind.
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  proey on Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:19 pm

Hmmm well I pretty much agree with steph here. Like, we are what we believe. But, either way, fate or no fate, our lives are governed by choices. Fate is just the viewpoint that your choice is what that Higher Power wanted you to choose. To me, that is just an explanation for a choice that you've made, good or bad. Would you know what your fate is before you even got there? If you are told that you are fated to do blahblahblah, your mind is set on that fact, and whatever you do afterwards will be directed by that blahblahblah that you are supposedly supposed to be or do. Even if you believe that a Higher Power is making these choices for you, it is your particular channel, your Intuition, that allows the "Higher Power"'s choice through. Therefore, it is still ultimately your choice.
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Michael Chen on Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:04 am

i think Fate relies more on human mind and free will relies more on essence since fate no matter how you analyze it, seems to be a logical reasoning for the whys and hows where as with freewill, things are spontaneous. So, I think the two concepts reflect two different perspectives with different sources. If one sees the world with Fate, then that person operates on logic. Nothing spontaneous can be fateful since spontaneous kinda elminates the room for reasns and fate, as a sequence with a puppet master can be a reason itself if there isn;t another reason logically deduced. If one believes in freewill, then it seems to me like that person has given himself room to live life on its own accord. He gives himself control and views the world as upcoming events and he is given the freedom to deal with it in his own fashion. I may be wrong.. and thats purely a personal thought which i like to share. Smile

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Nick_A on Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:51 am

Emily Y wrote:Hi Everyone -
In response to reading Emerson's Fate, I have pondered this seemingly simple, yet extremely complex question. It really is a matter of opinion but I would like to know what other people think. Do you believe in destiny or do you choose to believe in free-will? Do we choose our lives and what happens in them or do they just happen - everything moving with the tides of fate? Please also explain WHY you believe whatever you believe and add examples you see in life.

My Forums:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/freewill1

http://forum.visionary-spiritual-institute.com.au/showthread.php?t=2166

maybe
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/universalhealing/messages

Consider life in the jungle where all forms of life are reacting and interacting. Everything is eating everything else. Animals appear to choose which way they are going. A big cat is sleeping and then decides to get up. It moves left rather than right. Are all these reactions or choices? It depends how you define choice.

A cat is a creature of reaction and reacts according to external stimuli that influences its being. Is a human being any different? Its capacity for associative thought just gives it more potentials to react to. But a creature of reaction is still a creature of reaction regardless of how many influences, real and imaginary, to react to

For me, choice is an attribute of conscious humanity. Only consciousness gives us the ability to ACT and not just REACT as we normally do. As we are, lacking consciousness, we react like other animals. So for me in order for a person to be capable of human action, it requires consciousness or "to be." Choice is our potential we can come to see that we lack through experiencing impartial self knowledge.

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Kenny on Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:14 am

Well, I like to think that I have a bit of control over my own life, and that not everything is already predetermined, maybe stuff in the physical world is, but my ideas can run their own course, my thoughts and emotions can do as they please. The laws of physics act as the fate that controls what happens to me physically, but my mind and spirit are in their own little world where they make up the rules and they dictate the land.

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Nick_A on Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:32 am

Kenny wrote:Well, I like to think that I have a bit of control over my own life, and that not everything is already predetermined, maybe stuff in the physical world is, but my ideas can run their own course, my thoughts and emotions can do as they please. The laws of physics act as the fate that controls what happens to me physically, but my mind and spirit are in their own little world where they make up the rules and they dictate the land.

We all like to think that we have this choice since this belief is essential for the supremacy of our egotism or opinion of ourselves. Yet when you entered the room you are in and sat at the computer, was it a conscious action or just a normal reaction? Were you self aware when you sat at the computer or did it just "happen?"

Do you believe conscious humanity would be capable of wars and genocides? They are just "happenings."

"Imagination is always the fabric of social life and the dynamic of history. The influence of real needs and compulsions, of real interests and materials, is indirect because the crowd is never conscious of it." Simone Weil

Our lives of reaction are sustained through imagination and there is no choice in imagination. That is why society is oblivious of real needs and compulsions and prefers war when external conditions psychologically provoke it.

Welcome to life in Plato's cave.

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Fionaaa :) on Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:11 am

Hi there Emily Wink
Emerson understood the “pure potential” that exists in any object at the third level of existence.
The virtual domain states that without our consciousness acting as an observer and interpreter, everything would only exist as “pure potential.”

This is the same for free-will and fate.
Before choosing one of these paths in life, these two only existed as pure potential. But once I have chosen to say, believe in freewill and not in fate, the “pure potential” of fate melts away.
The free-will that was previously just a piece of potential has now collapsed into reality.

I think that everyone in life is given two choices – whether they want to believe they are in control of their life or believe that their life is controlled by fate.
Fate and freewill can coexist, but they are all based on perspective and choice.
We can choose to let fate take over and let it control our future, but if one believes he or she is free, he or she is.
No one knows if we are really governed by fate or free will, but as long as we think it, it is true.
Everything is based on human perception.
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Kenny on Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:32 am

I GOT THE 1000TH POST. HELL YEAH

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  kathy on Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:47 pm

do i believe in destiny or free will? well haha HONOSTLY, when i want something to blame or something to hold responsible for my actions (like when i do something bad or wrong), i believe in fate hehe, but i love the concept of free will. so im not really sure what i believe in.. Rolling Eyes

hmm ok well destiny and fate are is pretty much the same thing as free will except different names i think...cause you know know what your fate is IF you did believe in fate, then for every choice you make, you'd be like "it was my destiny to do this." and IF you believed in free will, then well you could pretty much do anything in your life. Both of the concepts allow you to live to the fullest potential, i think the difference between the two is that if one believed in destiny, then there would be a reason for things. and if one believed in free will, then there would be only yourself to hold the responsibility for all your choices in life. same name, different blame. HAHA that rhymed...ok. Smile hmm who determines ones fate anyways? god? maybe there is no fate, it could just be a name to ease people who want to believe in a higher power or someone to guide them..
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Joshua on Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:23 pm

Hi Emily,

I've been drowned by works and tests...
Anyhow, i believe that there is no fate, yet there is luck. I believe that one's life is dependent on one's choice and is up to oneself to gain control of, rather than letting others taking control of it. However, despite that i dont believe in fate, i do believe in luck.

My reasons are that i believe it is not fate for friends to meet, or fate for things to happen in life, it is luck and chances. I would say that i am a lucky person, to have met so many different people and it is not up to fate to decided whether i cherish them or not, it is purely of own choice. Of course, one does not know the future, so one has to live with courage and therefore shape their own life. Sometimes things do get unlucky, but it is definatly not fate where the end results are determined, it is up to one to decide how they want to deal with it.
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Emily Y on Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:40 pm

you guys and gals~ awesome discussion! Smile thanks for all the feedback. from the posts, i can see that the majority believes that whether it is fate or freewill, we have choice. so choice can never be completely erased from the picture. like we have a CHOICE whether or not to believe in fate. but what if the choice whether or not to make it is actually planned out by the Higher Power already? Predetermined? But technically we still have the choice...so how can we REALLY differentiate from fate and freewill? (now would be the time to take out your examples Smile)
when reading Steph's post I got a new question: Do you guys think that fate is a more challenging way to live? When someone believes it is their destiny to, say, be a member of the Peace Corps, then wouldn't they think that they couldn't give up therefore challenge themselves to persevere (PERTINACITY Wink). They seem to have more of a set goal and purpose in life, right? On the other hand, the people "with a choice" may have more freedom to change courses in life and give up...so...considering that - NOW which one do you find...better...or more appealing?
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Fionaaa :) on Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:00 pm

Appealing, eh?
Well, frankly it seems like the people who believe in fate are either the lazier, irresponsible humans unwilling to shape their own lives or the true, passionate self-believers.

Most of the time it's the former. I mean, there are tons of people in the world afraid to make choices. They don't want to take responsibility for THEIR life. I mean, c'mon, would a fifty year old store clerk want to admit that this is all he will ever amount to in life because it is his own fault? Probably not. He'll blame it on fate. Yes fate is a very susceptible scapegoat. it's in fact the perfect scapegoat. Why did I fail this exam? Why did I screw up the company? Why did I lose the war? Well, I guess it's fate, fate, and fate.
Yes fate seems more appealing.

However, to those who believe in themselves and believe they can alter the course of history, fate may also be a reason. It shall be fate for me to create a death machine and kill millions of Armenians.

In a sense, free-will is also appealing. If I accidentally screw up something big-time, like get involved in a scandal when I'm president or something, I know that it won't be fate for me to live a life of shame. I can always start over because nothing is fixed if I believe in free-will.

Yeah. Oh and,


What if I say that it is fate for me to have free-will?
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Kenny on Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:08 pm

in response to fiona's question, it seems that you would begin with having all your actions dictated by fate, and then at some turning point where fate dictated that you would have free will, the fate breaks? something like that. So simplified, all your choices would be predetermined up to the point where fate delivers it's last order to you, which is to relinquish it's hold on you and allow you the luxury of choosing your future.

Sorry, I thought emily was asking that xD


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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  John on Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:29 am

Fionaaa Smile wrote:

I think that everyone in life is given two choices – whether they want to believe they are in control of their life or believe that their life is controlled by fate.
Fate and freewill can coexist, but they are all based on perspective and choice.
We can choose to let fate take over and let it control our future, but if one believes he or she is free, he or she is.
No one knows if we are really governed by fate or free will, but as long as we think it, it is true.
Everything is based on human perception.

I myself like this point of view. Those who choose to self empower themself, will quickly learn how their life plan is integrated with their choices in life.

It is my experience that perception is king. When we see life as an adventure that is shared with our greater being's awareness, then we will experience true joy.

The free will factor is always in play. The more we choose to give our power of choice to others, the more we drift away from the potential for self empowerment.

John
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  proey on Wed Jun 17, 2009 2:45 am

I agree with John. Perception is key to if we believe "fate" or "freewill" is better. Many times when something goes wrong, we do not want to take the responsibility for it--so we put all the blame on fate. It was SUPPOSED to happen, I couldn't prevent it... so on and all that crap. When we do do something good, we do think of it as ourselves that put us on the top of the world. Personally, I think all those thoughts are subject to the ego mind wanting praise and notability.

Here's a question that I had for a while: does fate even exist? Or is it just an artificial something that we give up our control over our lives to? Imagine that Harry Potter never knew that he was "the boy who lived." Would he still have defeated You-Know-Who? (At this time of night, I get some very, very lame examples, so excuse me Razz) No matter what, a choice we make in life is chosen by us, ourselves. Although there are most likely outside influences and the ego mind and whatnot affecting our decisions, it is ultimately the choice of our Being. "Fate" is just a name that we give a choice that we have already made. Correct me if I'm wrong. Razz
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Emily Y on Wed Jun 17, 2009 8:44 pm

Nice questions out there Smile
Proey: maybe fate exists, maybe not. But if it does, I think it means the choice that the Higher Power makes for us that we will make the choice we make...get it? XD but you're right if, say, fate does not exist. Then this question whether or not fate exists goes to the question of whether or not there is a Higher Being...
so are some people saying that we have a choice to believe in fate or freewill...but if fate really exists, isn't there no choice? Then it becomes just a hallucination that we are in control of our lives while all the "choices" "we" make are already predetermined. And when people say perception, they mean choice seeing as choosing your own perspective is a choice that proves freewill.
Fiona: i believe that it actually IS everyone's fate to have freewill. We seem to have a choice so from our perspective it is freewill right? but actually we have the choices but the Higher Power already knows the result basically - that is sort of a compromise between fate and freewill?
Josh: what makes you say luck is not fate?
Reading Josh's post, I have another question you guys can consider: What is luck? Is it from fate? If we have freewill, why do we get things that we do not make the choice to receive or that we do not ask for or work for? Why do people get things they "don't deserve?"
wow...now i'm confused...help me work it out guys!
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Fionaaa :) on Wed Jun 17, 2009 10:12 pm

It would be an awfully pleasant world if we DON'T "get things that we do not make the choice to receive or that we do not ask for or work for?" Imagine everyday as peaceful and happy. That would make everyday NOT peaceful and happy, because everyday would be the same and we won't be able to label them as "good" or "bad" There would be no contrast, so the happiness would not be brought out.

What constitutes something that someone "deserves"?
Who in the world decides what someone deserves?
And free-will doesn't necessarily mean good decision making. Just because we have free-will doesn't mean we will make the right decisions. A person is bound to screw up many, many times in life.
I have learned one thing for sure in life - we do not get everything we work for and act to receive for. Life isn't fair and free-will doesn't make it any fairer Wink

Luck is the label we give to something that is unexpected in life. It is what we believe we didn't work for but came to us anyway. What we believe we DID work for and DID come would be called success. Luck just comes spontaneously without our anticipation.
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Kenny on Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:12 am

Emily Y wrote:Nice questions out there Smile
What is luck? Is it from fate? If we have freewill, why do we get things that we do not make the choice to receive or that we do not ask for or work for? Why do people get things they "don't deserve?"
wow...now i'm confused...help me work it out guys!

It's not like we completely dominate what happens in our lives, choice is limited to what we know, and when we make a choice, the outcome is predictable, but anything that happens that we don't expect would be shunted off to the side labeled "chance." And in this sense, asking why people get things they don't choose to get is kinda like asking why stuff happens in general, it happens cuz it happens i guess? lol, people get what they get, its not like the universe rewards us for our efforts and is a fair being that gives us what we think we should get.

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  proey on Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:13 am

Not to be a label breaker... but i think the words "fate," "deserve," and "luck" are just... illusions? if you will. If you think you are fated to do this and that.. and this and that were just by the chance of fate, that you did not have a say in what happened to you, that's just wrong. Because somewhere along the road, you made a choice that brought you here to this new place. You can call that "fate," if you want, if you don't want to take the responsibility of controlling your own life.

But, are there any parts in life that you are really unable to make your own choice?... If you need to choose between two things, and both feel right, and neither of them can coexist... how the hell do you make your decision? How are you to know what to choose, if they're both equally hard to abandon?... Sorry, this is probably a little off topic.

As for what we deserve? God knows what we deserve. If we are all human beings with unlimited potential, why would we NOT deserve something, if we have the potential to get there? "I don't deserve someone like you." Well, news flash, you are with that person. There must have been a CHOICE that you made that brought you to that place. And, I don't believe in luck really. If everyone is interconnected, their souls are connected, don't we have a gut feeling for every person, even if we've never met them before? Let's say you're "lucky" to get an easy teacher for some random subject. Is it really by chance? or did a choice that you made affect what teacher you got? Perhaps this is kind of touching on karma.. or more like, very indirect cause and effect. You made some sort of choice, and that choice sent a pulse of energy that in the future, will affect something.

Then again, luck is also by perspective. You may find yourself lucky to have an easy slack class. Another person may find him or herself lucky to be able to learn something substantial from a hardcore teacher. And then, that's based on our uniqueness... we all have that different perspective that makes us call a happening, "luck."

i'm not sure that i'm making sense at all... so yeah..
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  kathy on Thu Jun 18, 2009 7:51 pm

OH! speaking of karma, i totally believe in that lol it keeps me motivated to do the things i have to do and have hope for the things i desire. But, as proey said, this could all just be a label or a mind set we created for ourselves, or a rule we created just to keep us going and motivated. hmmm but what made us believe in karma ? was it fate ? or was it our being?

this topic sorta relates to HAnnah's topic too because she is talkign about religion and how it started or if it even exists. i think both religion and fate are just names for our desires for a "higher being" to guide us, our need for something to lead us and just something to be there when everything else is gone. Liek people say you can talk to "God" whenever you want, when everyone else is gone he's still there. maybe its our desire for something permenant in life. Fate could be something like that too, if our life is already planned out, then we wouldnt worry that much and we would be more free to live the way we want because we know there is a set path - one permenant path. it eases ourself and our mind to knowing there is something out there leading us and that we aren't alone. sorry if this doesnt really relate..basically im just saying, maybe we label and create beliefs like these to comfor us and let us know that we can live our life freely because there is a higher power guiding us, therefore we feel a sense of belonging to someone or something.
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Emily Y on Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:22 pm

thanks for clearing that out for me!
okk...so there is no such thing as "deserving something" because this world isn't fair? what about karma? where's the motivation to keep going or to keep working for something?
when i said "luck" I had winning the lottery in mind. what makes YOU win it rather than someone else? do you want it more? no...so that rules out law of attraction right? then what is it? so maybe it is fate? because choice brought you to the possibility of winning the lottery, but not to winning the lottery itself. if there is no fate, then what is it? spontaneity?
so the majority belief is that we have choice? even if there is a higher power that exists - the higher power leaves the choice to us?
thanks you guys...please reply one last time and let's wrap up the discussion! I love you
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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Kenny on Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:02 am

Emily Y wrote:
okk...so there is no such thing as "deserving something" because this world isn't fair? what about karma? where's the motivation to keep going or to keep working for something?
when i said "luck" I had winning the lottery in mind. what makes YOU win it rather than someone else? do you want it more? no...so that rules out law of attraction right? then what is it? so maybe it is fate? because choice brought you to the possibility of winning the lottery, but not to winning the lottery itself. if there is no fate, then what is it? spontaneity?

Yup, precisely, karma doesn't actually exist, it only seems like it does because after we do something bad, or something good, we'll start searching for signs of karma happening, and as a result, any little thing that happens to us will have it's significance magnified to an extravagant extent.

And as for the lottery kind of luck, there isn't really a reason, the stuff just happens, nothing's really making you win, it's not the law of attraction, not fate, not spontaneity either. we've already established in other threads that pretty much all of those ideas depend greatly on perspective and as everyone has different views, they bear no validity. So yeah, You just win, no why, no how. you just do, it's not like it was written as a prophecy and must come true or any weird crap like that. wasn't spontaneity either because you don't get spontaneity in the physical world, there is always a plausible explanation, no matter how complicated it seems.

Don't really know how to discuss your question about choice Razz

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  Nick_A on Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:15 am

Kenny

Is the fate of every acorn to become an oak? No. The majority just go to feed the earth and creatiures upon it. We are the same. The fate of Man and human types is one thing but every person walking on the earth doesn't have the fate of trancendedent conscious humanity. Only a few are capable of the fate of humanity just like only a rare few acorns become an oak. Like the acorn, most just feed the earth in cycles on what Buddhism calls the "wheel of samsara."

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Re: Do You Have a CHOICE?

Post  John on Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:43 am

Nick_A wrote:Kenny

Is the fate of every acorn to become an oak? No. The majority just go to feed the earth and creatiures upon it. We are the same. The fate of Man and human types is one thing but every person walking on the earth doesn't have the fate of trancendedent conscious humanity. Only a few are capable of the fate of humanity just like only a rare few acorns become an oak. Like the acorn, most just feed the earth in cycles on what Buddhism calls the "wheel of samsara."

Yes this is also my understanding.

The choice is to be one of the few or one of the many.

John
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