Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  hen on Thu May 14, 2009 9:48 pm

Nice MS paint jpg you got there.

Personally, I think this question is going too far into questioning the functions of the universe. As Emerson stated, beyond this point, at the non-local domain, we can not question it or analyze it. We can only ever confirm its existence. Why we are split from the common origin into individuals (or what it is that does the splitting) I'm afraid we may never know. Seems to me your question lies along the lines of "Why do we exist?", which is an age old question (and age old for the reason in that no one has been able to answer it).
As stated in "Experience," revel in the fact that you do, and enjoy it.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Vicky on Thu May 14, 2009 9:57 pm

I agree with Proey and Henning. After thinking about your question for a while, I realized that there really isn’t a logical answer to your inquiry. Even if we tried to explain an individual’s uniqueness by frequencies of waves, we still cannot discern exactly what produces different undulating rates of waves. Therefore, as Emerson said, “In that deep force, the last fact behind which analysis cannot go, all things find their common origin.” There really is no concrete answer to this question. Perhaps the comfort that we can gain from this unanswerable question is that, whatever that common origin is, it has been sufficient and proficient enough to support the universe, and will continue to possess the power to do so.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  proey on Thu May 14, 2009 10:13 pm

Smile Thanks guys. I think you guys are right. This is probably where the words "something" and "unknown" comes in.

Time for a twist in the question as we hit the dead end? ----- There's something out there deciding who we essentially are, deciding how each of our connections to the greater collective consciousness differentiate.
How and why do we have faith in that something that we cannot explain?
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  BC on Fri May 15, 2009 9:51 pm

Confidence

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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  joannneee on Fri May 15, 2009 10:06 pm

proey wrote:Smile Thanks guys. I think you guys are right. This is probably where the words "something" and "unknown" comes in.

Time for a twist in the question as we hit the dead end? ----- There's something out there deciding who we essentially are, deciding how each of our connections to the greater collective consciousness differentiate.
How and why do we have faith in that something that we cannot explain?

Hey Proey - I needed a little something more other than Music. xD
Faith - it's one of my questions of a life time, I think. What makes us believe? It's like what Emerson wrote: "Who is the Trustee?" and why do we trust it? I think faith is mostly Courage: it's like jumping off a cliff and believing that someone below will catch us. But that's mostly blind faith, but a foundation for trust takes a lot of building to make; yet it takes so little to break. I think why we have faith is because it feels better than having no faith - it's like driftwood in middle of a vast sea. We have faith because we're worse off without it.

But is the concept of faith an ego-mind concept or a Essential concept? I understand that it may seem like the answer is very, very obvious, but if our Faith were really only something to ensure our "sanity", then wouldn't it be an ego-mind concept? But yet faith is also to give in your all to something - to trust something explicitly. This immersing of one's self is an Essential quality or our beings. Then which would it be?
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Andy.S on Fri May 15, 2009 11:45 pm

Hmmm...I myself see faith as a sense of purpose, a feeling of attachment toward something. But if I had to classify faith...then I would say it is Essence. I don't think it can be ego-mind, because faith isn't some sort of loud voice in your head; it is a feeling either generated by your being. Of course, it is widely debated whether feeling is from Being or Mind, so we can take on the discussion from there.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  hen on Fri May 15, 2009 11:53 pm

It is our intuition, our instinct that tells us to believe in certain functions of the universe. Here's one of my favorite examples: the migratory bird. What tells the birds they need to migrate? What is it that is guiding them throughout long and complex routes across the globe? Why do they do it?

What tells birds to migrate is their instinct. They can't possibly explain it any better than we can. They same thing tells them their route, as far as we know. What is key here, in this example, is why they migrate. Studies have shown that birds migrate to avoid unfavorable weather conditions, and return after the conditions have returned to normal. What happens if they fail to migrate is possible death.

Similarly, when we are hungry, our instinct tells us to find food. We have a sex drive that persuades us to reproduce. If we neglect our instincts, we die out. They are functions from our origin, if we were to go against them, we would go against the very foundation of our existence.

We have faith in the universe because if we don't, the end result may be unthinkable, and we know this; we can feel a disastrous outcome whenever we contemplate going against our instincts.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Gray on Sat May 16, 2009 11:17 am

Hen I really enjoyed reading your reply, but I have a question i want you to think about, if we really think about the ego mind, isn't it the part of us that contains all of our instincts. If so then why are we try to get rid of it, without it we can't survive?

The ego mind is just a name, but aren't we just using it as a scapegoat. Whenever we get in trouble, we just say that our ego mind made us do it. I feel that the ego mind isn't something totally black like other posts have hinted, but instead it is gray and it has its own positive side. If there is, shouldn't we try to use this positive side to help us in our daily lives?
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  joannneee on Sat May 16, 2009 6:40 pm

Gray wrote:Hen I really enjoyed reading your reply, but I have a question i want you to think about, if we really think about the ego mind, isn't it the part of us that contains all of our instincts. If so then why are we try to get rid of it, without it we can't survive?

The ego mind is just a name, but aren't we just using it as a scapegoat. Whenever we get in trouble, we just say that our ego mind made us do it. I feel that the ego mind isn't something totally black like other posts have hinted, but instead it is gray and it has its own positive side. If there is, shouldn't we try to use this positive side to help us in our daily lives?

As you said, the Ego-mind DOES have its good sides - like helping us organize our lives into memos that are actually discernible to our brains.

The Ego-mind, in the context of our discussions, is an entity that helps us coordinate our minds into organized sections, and thus are able to allow us to become more efficient in our every day lives in things that need organization and more "classical thinking". By "classical thinking" I mean thinking that is applied to problems such as making grocery lists, pinning up "post-its" for appointments in our brains so that we don't forget, and things like memorization. But the thing about our Ego-mind is that it is resistant to change, and it thus very inflexible. Due to its inflexibility we are often confined to the "boxes" of our minds - we are unable to jump out of the box that is our thinking.

The Being and/or Essence is the one that deals more with emotions, feeling, and intuition. The Universal Being is evident in all of us, but with our ego-minds, which often go into "over-drive" (To be explained later), our Essence is often eclipsed by the superficial whining and nagging of our ego-minds.

And seeing now that I'm heading out for dinner, this post will be continued later. xD
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Angela on Sun May 17, 2009 4:45 pm

The ego mind is just a name, but aren't we just using it as a scapegoat. Whenever we get in trouble, we just say that our ego mind made us do it. I feel that the ego mind isn't something totally black like other posts have hinted, but instead it is gray and it has its own positive side. If there is, shouldn't we try to use this positive side to help us in our daily lives?

My view on the ego mind is a little different from yours, but it holds the same foundation thought that you mentioned. Whenever we get in trouble, we tend to want to blame it on others. Why? Perhaps it is the easier route to take and it will make you feel better. But what is feeling better…’you’ or your ‘ego mind’? Our ego minds, just as Joanne said, like to classify things to form order and reason. Just like the Classcicst era, our minds want things to work like machines because things can be predictable that way. Perhaps when we blame something on others, it is actually the ego mind dominating and in the process of going to overdrive. Our ego minds do not like to venture into the mysterious world of the Universal Being simply because it does not have something tangible to refer back to and rely on.

BUT, there IS a positive side to our classicist minds. Organizing ideas, for example, and categorizing things, just like we would do on our computer – organize things into different files so we can refer back to them in the future. But the one thing that prevents the ego mind from experiencing the essence and opening up to the channel of intuition – of spontaneity and instinct, is its resistance to change. When change does occur, things might get choatic because the ego mind cannot deal with the inuition, emotion, imagingation type of thought (intangible, which is just like the Universal Being.)
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Gray on Sun May 17, 2009 5:39 pm

Angela I have to disagree with your explanation of the ego mind. I believe that the Ego mind has no order, it goes off in random directions and similar to a kid, it gets bored really quick and moves on to the next thing. I believe it desires everything, but it never takes the time to master anything resulting with knowing nothing.

The other half of a person other than the ego mind lets call him Pen okay? Then like the Ying & Yang, it will be the opposite from Ego here. Meaning Pen enjoys order and takes his time to master things he first gained interest in.

I hope for a nice response to continue this conversation

Bye
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  anita on Sun May 17, 2009 6:19 pm

Gray I do agree that the ego mind goes off at random directions when it is in a state of overdrive, but I do not think it gets bored really quickly. If it does, then where do our worry and paranoia come from? It does get bored, just like when we buy a new object, the ego mind would eventually become used to it and become bored of it. Then we would want something new and better, which is reflecting our greed. Our ego mind leads us to think that by buying more things, by contributing to excess consumerism, our lives will be improved and our happiness level would be increased. The ego mind loves to dwell in the past and the future. By going to overdrive, the ego mind prevents us from experiencing the now. It may desire everything, but since the ego mind goes off at random directions with no sense of which to follow, it does not really accomplish anything when gone into overdrive. If it gets really bored quickly and moves on to the next thing, then why are we so resistant to change? Isn’t it because with change, new situations will occur where the ego mind is not familiar with, and the ego mind dislikes this unfamiliarity since it would have no control?

If you had to choose a word to coin Pen with, what would it be? The other half of a person would be?
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Fermin Liu on Sun May 17, 2009 6:36 pm

@ Angela and Gray

I both disagree and agree with parts of what both of you are saying about the ego-mind. Angela says that the good and positive function of the ego-mind is that it classifies things and orders them in a fashion that we can go back and refer to it in the future. The ego-mind does classify but for a different reason that the one you are implying. The ego-mind categorized because it fears change and the unknown. Therefore, to spare the ego-mind the pain of its death by quieting the ego-mind and ultimately, completely separating from it by connecting with essence, human beings who identify themselves as the ego-mind and nothing else will want to stereotype because the only way to truly understand something new for what it its instead of for what it seems to be (similar to something else) is connecting with its being, and that cannot be done with the ego-mind. And in this sense of the ego-mind, it is like a kid like you said, Gray. I know that the ego-mind does seem to want everything (lust and greed) without appreciating the things it already has or has gained but rather just want materialistic things for the materials that they are instead of enjoying the essence of everyone and everything that we have access to through the Universal Being.

However, where I may disagree with Gray is his usage of the word "order" in application to Pen or the inner being. I don't think that the inner being necessarily enjoys order but rather it takes time to meditate and get to feel the essence of things with its own essence. It takes time to connect with the Collective Unconsciousness and for our physical selves to feel that connection as well. Thus, I think that Pen is each individual's connecting pathway from the mind to the Universal Being. It retains our personality and individuality yet at the same time has a serenity that opposes the chaos of the ego-mind.

Yet, I totally agree with the second part of Angela's post when she says that the ego-mind is resistant to change and because of it, cannot connect with essence. The ego-mind constantly tries to make sense of things (classify them scientifically) even when it shouldn't. Like how we are taught to read poetry by the packet on Thursday, we should not put more meaning into something than it has. Don't overestimate something but at the same time, don't underestimate it. The Universal Being is infinite potential and this potential can only be accessed by connecting with the essence or the Universal Being. Therefore, connect with it! Experience it as a WHOLE, as it is (pure energy) instead of trying to attach a bunch of complicated, scientific terms to it which clearly do not belong in the connecting to essence.

@ Anita

but I do not think it gets bored really quickly. If it does, then where do our worry and paranoia come from? It does get bored, just like when we buy a new object, the ego mind would eventually become used to it and become bored of it. Then we would want something new and better, which is reflecting our greed. Our ego mind leads us to think that by buying more things, by contributing to excess consumerism, our lives will be improved and our happiness level would be increased. The ego mind loves to dwell in the past and the future. By going to overdrive, the ego mind prevents us from experiencing the now. It may desire everything, but since the ego mind goes off at random directions with no sense of which to follow, it does not really accomplish anything when gone into overdrive. If it gets really bored quickly and moves on to the next thing, then why are we so resistant to change? Isn’t it because with change, new situations will occur where the ego mind is not familiar with, and the ego mind dislikes this unfamiliarity since it would have no control?

You pointed out something that I overlooked when I was writing the first part of my reply to Angela and Gray. Thanks! Smile The ego-mind is paranoid and obsessed (as you have seen me be over you-know-what for the past few days), but it does get bored easily with what it has - that's why it engages in excessive consumerism - because it is NEVER satisfied. As for the reluctance to change part, even though the ego-mind is so scared of not having control and not knowing which is why it is so afraid of change, when it spins off and goes into overdrive, it does not move on to a new new thing, rather it moves on to something that it believes is new but rather is actually just something that is a newer version of the old it has already classified. So, the ego-mind is still very much reluctant and resentful to changes, but it continues to desire freshness in its oldness which is the why of the excessive shopping and using, etc. Very Happy
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Vicky on Sun May 17, 2009 8:00 pm

Hey guys! Wow, this discussion seems to have gotten pretty heated in the past two days!

To Ange: I agree with you that the ego mind is retrospective – it tends to judge situations based on the past. It feels more in control that way because it can anticipate the results more accurately. Fear and paranoia are constant companions of the ego mind, and although it claims to dislike fear and paranoia, in truth, it cannot function without both elements. The ego mind is a tyrant, and it controls the individual by inserting fear and self-consciousness. Why? Because only by installing fear and paranoia within the person can the ego mind predict how the individual will react. If the ego mind lets the individual listen to the being, it will not know how the person will react. One of the main characteristics of the being is that it is spontaneous. How can the ego mind predict spontaneity? As a result, it must let paranoia and fear cloud the visions of the individual to ensure that it is in 100 percent control.

To Gray: I have to say that I disagree with you on that part that you said the ego mind is completely chaotic (running in different directions). I believe that the ego mind isn’t chaotic, it merely makes its host feel chaotic by the particles of fear and paranoia it plants into them. The ego mind seems to be quite one-tracked in its thinking. It is as if it has a big sign attached to its forehead that says, “Mission: To Take Full Control Over Individual.” It only seems to be concerned with securing its power. However, just like any despot, the ego mind tries to secure its control by planting seeds of hysteria and fear. Thus, I think that the ego mind is characterized by much order. How would it be able to take control of the individual if it didn’t have a whole system of ways to keep the individual under its curse?

Your second point, though, I both agree and disagree with. The ego mind is like a petulant child at times; it wants everything – especially material wise. Its insatiable nature works in sync with the trends set by society. Because, to an extent, the ego mind is the product of societal contamination. Society teaches it the feeling of being called a loser. The ego mind then, uses this feeling to lure the individual into buying objects of luxury to feed its greediness. However, I do not agree that the ego mind gets bored easily. As Anita said, if the ego mind gets bored by things easily, then shouldn’t it be tired of materialism swiftly as well? But then, why does it continue to mingle in its avarice for materialistic goods? This is because it wants more of those goods. It will never get tired of them.

To Anita and Fermin: Yep. I completely agree with you guys that because of its possessive and obsessive nature, it never gets tired of materialistic goods. As a result, excessive consumerism is a never ending cycle. As more ego minds taste the sweetness of money and fame, excessive consumerism becomes an increasingly endangering problem. However, like I said above, I don’t think that the ego mind has no order. On the contrary, I believe that it has too much order. It is so intent on gaining certain aspects such as money and popularity, that it will do pretty much anything to have its way. That is why it is resentful when changes come into view – because it is it afraid that changes will threaten its avaricious privileges.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  proey on Sun May 17, 2009 9:36 pm

Dang, you guys are totally ripping the ego mind to shreds here. Smile Awesomeee. Of all these concepts of materialism, child-like-ness, and so on, I'd have to say none of these seem wrong, and just because two ideas contradict each other doesn't mean that they can't both describe the ego mind.

The ego mind contains all thought, things based on past, present, and future altogether. Often thoughts about the past, like reminiscing, catalyze a process in which our minds start thinking "what if this, what if that," worrying about the future. This is what we'd say is incessant thinking, the part of the ego mind that is driven by a child, going into frenzy every now and then. Materialism arises from this: it is a build up of one-minute-obsessions that advertisements and such goad us into buying or doing.

Remember that packet (which I forgot the name of) that talked about passion and curiosity being the ways people are able to learn effectively? Well, this incessant ego mind quickly clouds one's capacity for passion and curiosity, making us unable to delve deeper into a single thing. It is like spreading spices on bread, but not baking it so that the aroma reaches the inner bready goodness. Smile Excuse the lame analogy.

However, not all thought is bad. Past events may help us recognize faults that we may fix, hence the saying that we should learn from history to prevent these mistakes from happening again. Also, in determining the amount of time left before a certain deadline, we are able to do things in a timely fashion, finishing on schedule, with a full effort put into it.

"God grant me the serenity to accept the things i cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." This Christian proverb (that I actually learned in Chinese class) can actually be used universally, in relation to how we live. We cannot change the past. But we can use the past to do something in the present in order to change our future in ways that we want to.

And it is in this "wisdom to know the difference" that we may be able to distinguish the better uses of the mind--to rid ourselves of the childlike, whiny, materialistic, superficial, on-and-off ego mind, and cultivate the passion and curiosity that allows each of us to learn and excel in things that we truly do care about. This is when our mind meets essence--where your mind's great genius thoughts are spontaneously triggered through one's Intuition meeting one's learning.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Rose on Mon May 18, 2009 1:46 am

I’m trying to follow this discussion but I‘m struggling with some terms. I have a question that I would be pleased if someone could clear up. When you speak of the ego-mind here, is it fair to assume you are speaking of the ego?
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  proey on Mon May 18, 2009 2:05 am

The "ego mind" is kind of a center for thought as opposed to feeling. It includes the accumulation of experiences, one's social customs or etiquette, and all those things that you are not born with. You develop an "ego mind" through conditioning, which is usually caused by societal or familial "guidance." It is like the writing on a clean slate. It is not solely the ego. Hmm i just realized how hard it actually is to describe :/ I hope this attempt at an explanation helped, Rose! Smile Razz
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Rose on Tue May 19, 2009 5:31 am

Yes it does, thanks. If I understand correctly, it sounds like it may be along the lines of mindfulness. We become mindful of our conditioning through our experiences and perceptions. We come to know ourselves. Unless I’m way off track, I think I can grasp the meaning of the ego-mind through that. Hopefully we are on the same page but just using slightly different terminology.
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Re: Intuition and the Collective Unconscious

Post  Rose on Tue May 19, 2009 6:15 am

proey,

I agree that while we are preoccupied with the ego-mind it does prevent us from going deeper. I see the ego-mind full of surface concerns and triumphs making it quite difficult to go within and make new discoveries about ourselves and the world we live in. This is enough reason alone for the ego-mind to be brought under control.

But do we have to rid ourselves of the childlike, whiny, etc. ego-mind? Isn't it possible to train the ego-mind to behave, and to be more selective? Like the kid in the candy store who wants everything he sees but has to settle for one or two things because he doesn't have enough money. He learns to be more selective. And once he has settled on two packets of something his mind can stop reeling and return to more important things. It's only when we let it run on unchecked that the ego-mind takes up so much time and energy, time and energy that would be better spent on something more important to our growth and survival.
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